Critical race theory in schools: How to stop CRT's spread

May 7, 2021

Allowing critical race theory in schools is a huge problem for our country. But just what is critical race theory and why is it a threat to the American way of life? Idaho Freedom Foundation Education Policy Analyst Anna K. Miller and Chris Rufo, the venerated scholar who inspired President Donald Trump to ban CRT trainings at the federal level, explain this dangerous theory and its origins.

Miller and Rufo also outline ways that states and freedom-minded Americans can stop the spread of this divisive and erroneous intellectual framework.

Related video: Fighting Woke Classrooms in Idaho with FEE's Kerry McDonald

FULL TRANSCRIPT:

Anna Miller:

All right. Well, hello everyone, I'm Anna Miller, Education Policy Researcher at the Idaho Freedom Foundation, and welcome to our latest event. Today I'm excited to welcome Christopher Rufo to the show. Chris is a writer filmmakers senior fellow at the Manhattan Institute. He's directed four films for PBS, including America Lost, and is a contributing editor of City Journal, where he covers critical race theory, homelessness, addiction, crime, and other afflictions. His investigative reporting recently led President Trump to issue an executive order, banning critical race theory from the federal government. So Chris, welcome, and thank you so much for being here today.

Christopher Rufo:

It's great to be with you.

Anna Miller:

So I wanted to interview you, because I know you're one of the few researchers out there, who is explaining critical race theory, you're equipping the public to understand it, and you're equipping others to advocate against it. We know critical race theory is a pernicious ideology that's demanding control increasingly in so many different aspects of our lives.

Anna Miller:

Here in Idaho, it's infiltrated our education system, both K-12 and the university system, and it's the cause of a lot of racial turmoil that we're seeing in society today. So I want to unpack all of this with you, and help our audience kind of understand, what is critical race theory and how can we stand against it? So I think maybe let's start here. How did you get involved in all of this in the first place?

Christopher Rufo:

Yeah, I got involved on this issue really by chance at the beginning. Last year, I had received an anonymous leak from the city of Seattle Office of Civil Rights, and this person said, "Hey, you really need to check out what's happening in the Office of Civil Rights, they're conducting internalized white supremacy trainings. They're forcing people to denounce their racial and sexual identities, it's really just a hot mess what's happening in this office." So this piqued my interest, and I filed a public records request, a FOIA request.

Christopher Rufo:

And then I forgot about it for about six weeks or eight weeks until the public records officer was able to get back to me. And they sent me actual CD-ROMs, a CD-ROM disc, two discs. All right, so I called a friend and I said, "Hey, do you have a CD-ROM player? "I can't even open this thing. I brought it over, and I open up this trove of documents and it was just shocking. It was horrific, it was almost unbelievable, the kind of things that they were teaching and doing in the office of civil rights. And I broke this story first on Twitter, then at City Journal and then on Fox News, and this story just absolutely caught fire.

Christopher Rufo:

And that was really the starting point of all of my investigative work on this issue, and really understanding critical race theory, not just in an academic sense. I did my homework, I read the books, I looked at the syllabi, and understood it in theoretical terms, but really my interest was understanding how it looks and how it behaves within public institutions. So that first investigation in Seattle led to a de louche of new leakers. And I was then particularly interested in these leaks that were coming from the federal government.

Christopher Rufo:

So I did a series of reports on DHS, FBI, VA, EPA, Department of Treasury, The National Oceanic and Atmospheric Association, I think probably two dozen federal agencies, that I had been collecting documents on. And this led to a massive series of reports that generated a lot of attention. And then Tucker Carlson invited me to deliver a opening monologue together with him on his show, which is something quite rare. And at the end of it, I called on then President Trump by name said, "Hey, President Trump, this is what's happening in your administration, you need to abolish this and ban it immediately."

Christopher Rufo:

And lo and behold, he was actually watching Tucker Carlson that night, and he had his Chief Of Staff, Mark Meadows called me the next morning, and they said, "We're going to take care of this, we're going to do it." So this was the beginning, and then as we've seen and as we'll talk about in this webinar, it's led to a lot of new and exciting legislative efforts, that are really inspired by this original series of investigations and executive action last year.

Anna Miller:

So a lot of people on this call probably have varying levels of understanding for what critical race theory is. So could you just define for us what it is, and maybe give some concrete examples of what these trainings look like, and what maybe some classroom exercise look like that apply critical race theory?

Christopher Rufo:

Yeah. Critical race theory is an academic discipline that was founded in the 1990s. That takes the view that, you must look at society and power structures through the lens of race. Critical race theory, posits that race and racism are universal conditions, they're permanent, they're intractable, and that the United States, although it preaches these values of equality and freedom, and individual rights and protection of private property, those are all illusions or camouflage for a system of white supremacy, patriarchy and capitalist exploitation.

Christopher Rufo:

And critical race theory is really just a rehash of old style Marxism, which divided society into oppressor and oppressed based on economic categories, into a new formulation based on the racial categories. Saying, "Well, we do believe in anti-capitalism, they are at heart Marxist in economic sense, but they look at it through the lens of oppressor and oppressed along racial lines. And there's a big debate about what critical race theory is, what does it believe? I think those are the basics, I think even critical race theory, so let's say that that's a fair interpretation of what they believe.

Christopher Rufo:

But again, what I think is really most interesting, it's not, what did the academic papers say? That's interesting, there's some serious value to understanding it. But actually, what does it look like in implementation, and the phrase that keeps running through my mind in all of these investigations, where the critical racists, they're really mad right now, right? Frankly, we're just wrecking them. We've spent like months just absolutely demolishing their scholarship and their brand. And they're really mad. And the last couple of weeks, especially, they're like, "Well, these people don't even know what critical race theory is, and it's a great idea, and they didn't read the literature and blah, blah, blah."

Christopher Rufo:

And it's like, this is real communism has never been tried. It's like, "Okay, maybe it's a perfect idea in theory, I disagree, but even if you take that as an accepted thing, what does it look like in practice? Does it actually work? Does it help people? Does it make education better? Does it raise outcomes? Does it reduce racial disparities? The answer to all those questions is, no, critical race theory doesn't actually work in practice. And in the classroom, which I think is really where everyone is really interested. I'll give you a couple of examples for my investigative reporting over the last four months, which I've looked exclusively at critical race theory in K-12 education.

Christopher Rufo:

My reporting has done about 250 million media impressions, I mean, these stories have really caught the attention of the public. And it's third graders in Cupertino, California, being forced to deconstruct their racial and sexual identities, and then forced to rank themselves according to their power and privilege. Another story is public school teachers at a middle school in Springfield, Missouri, being forced to locate themselves on an oppression matrix, and then having the trainers divide the white male Christians into the oppressor category, and then the women and people of color and sexual minorities into the oppressed category.

Christopher Rufo:

And then asking the white male Christians to atone for their white privilege and covert white supremacy. Or it looks like a public school curriculum, a mandated K-12 curriculum in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, that was showing kindergartners a video dramatizing dead black children, warning students that they could be murdered by 'racist police' at any time. And then telling later elementary school students that all white people perpetuate systemic racism, that all white wealth derives from slavery and exploitation, and that whites are 'unfairly rich'.

Christopher Rufo:

I mean, very one-sided, very strange, very ideologically driven. And then finally, I think another good example is a fifth grade class in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. That last example was actually Buffalo, in New York, sorry. But Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, they had fifth graders, they forced them to celebrate black communism, and then Marched them into the auditorium to simulate a black power rally to free Angela Davis from prison. I mean really training them to be ideologically aligned with a literal member of the communist party USA, Angela Davis, and then freeing her from prison. Where in the late 1960s, she had been held on charges of murder.

Christopher Rufo:

So these are things that are happening in classrooms across the country. And I just exposed them, expose them, expose them. I built this narrative of exactly what's happening inside the classroom, how it relates to critical race theory. And then the country has responded, it's been quite fun to watch.

Anna Miller:

So I want to take a moment and point out to our audience too, that we know some of this is happening in Idaho. For example, there is a middle school in Radiant, Idaho, that was handing out flyers to parents, and kids, and teachers, about white privilege. And telling them to be aware of their privilege and check their privilege. We know that teachers have to undergo culturally responsive training, another word for that is anti-racism training.

Anna Miller:

And maybe Chris, you could talk a little bit about the different terms used that bring critical race theory into schools, but not explicitly saying critical race theory. But one question I have for you is, what is the end goal of all of this? What is the point of bringing these things into our institutions in our education system, what do critical race theorists want out of this?

Christopher Rufo:

That's a good question. It's actually a really critical question, and it's one that's not necessarily easy to answer. If you look at critical race theory, I mean, first of all, it is a critical theory. So the idea of looking at social institutions, deconstructing them, looking at their entrenched power structures and then offering criticism. So a negative dialectic, or a critical function. So a lot of critical race theory is really just a negative analysis of existing social institutions.

Christopher Rufo:

But if you ask that question, what do they want? And then you read their academic literature, and even their popular literature, it becomes quite clear. Again, these are Neo-Marxists. And they say very clearly that freedom of speech, private property, equal protection under the law, non-discrimination, colorblindness, federalist system of government, the U.S. Constitution, are all fundamentally racist, and must be overthrown in a moral economic and political revolution. Cheryl Harris, the UCLA law professor, critical race theorist, she suggested that the country should temporarily suspend private property rights, and then redistribute land and wealth on the basis of race, racial wealth redistribution, again, a kind of racialized Marxism.

Christopher Rufo:

And then E. Brown [inaudible 00:11:55], probably the most famous, critical race guru of our time. You know, he's recommended creating a department of anti-racism at the federal government, that would have the power to regulate political speech, making sure it's anti-racist. And then he's also said that you cannot be anti-racist without also being anti-capitalist. And that's the key point, right? Is again, their ideas for rectifying these problems always circle back to a very primitive and basic racialized Marxism.

Christopher Rufo:

And that's ultimately why I think critical race theory is so destructive, and so intellectually vacuous, is that it's all of these tried and failed ideas from the 20th century and the 19th century, that have never worked anywhere they've been tried. And yet they keep coming back and back and back, because they don't actually have a constructive program for making society better for vulnerable people of any racial background.

Anna Miller:

So this theory strikes me as a very anti-intellectual theory, and we know in Idaho that it has really infiltrated our universities as it has in the rest of the country. We did two really extensive reports evaluating how social justice has taken over our universities, critical race theory is a key part of the ideology that social justice activists push. So to what extent do you think that critical race theory poses a threat to how far it has infiltrated, particularly universities?

Christopher Rufo:

Yeah, I mean, it is a university question, where these ideas are emerged directly from university professors. And they really started the 1960s with Herbert [inaudible 00:13:42], and other critical theorists. So the original people were just critical theorists, they were Marxists, many of them having fled during the interwar period from Germany, and other countries in Europe, where they were fleeing Nazi-ism and horrific totalitarian movements of the 20th century.

Christopher Rufo:

But they were committed Marxists dedicated to the revolution, opposed to capitalism, opposed to liberal democracies. And then the critical race theorists adapted their ideas, and then applied racial categories to them as the primary lens, through which to see society. So what I think is really interesting, and I think it's frankly, going to be a huge Battlefront in the coming years is that, critical race theorists are almost entirely... Their whole movement is almost entirely directly funded or subsidized by taxpayers. So public universities like in Idaho are funded by taxpayers, even private universities, such as the Ivy League universities are heavily subsidized by taxpayers, through student loan programs, grants, and other funding mechanisms.

Christopher Rufo:

So we're this bizarre country where taxpayers are being asked, and taxpayers frankly are funding ideologies that are opposed to the nation, that are opposed to the American state, that are opposed to the American system of government, and opposed to the constitutional order. We're a very kind of rare society that would taxpayer fund its own destructive impulses. And I think that this is what we've seen is that, critical race theorists cannot survive outside of being publicly funded. Their ideas have no value in the marketplace, they are not entrepreneurial minded or capable.

Christopher Rufo:

Many of them that work on like diversity and inclusion committees could not get hired in any other capacity, besides these kind of made up ideological programs. And so they enter public institutions, they hijack the mission. That is a good humanistic mission, and then they use the public infrastructure to promote their private ideologies. That's what we've seen, and I think that it's going to be very fun to be actually going after them on their home territory. Going after universities, going after public education, going after state bureaucracies. And I think we need major reforms, and we need to absolutely be very aggressive in how we attack.

Anna Miller:

Yeah. So that's a fantastic point in regards to how universities need funding. Here in Idaho, one of our main goals has been to slowly starve the universities that are veering from their core mission, and this year we actually stripped $3 million from our public universities. And so our idea is that if we can starve them of public funds, and make them aware of how the public feels about the ideology that they're pushing, then hopefully we will see reform. So that was a huge victory for us.

Anna Miller:

Idaho also did something else this year, we passed a bill that said, schools and universities cannot compel students to affirm or adopt the tenants of critical race theory. And [inaudible 00:17:01] we've seen, what do you think is the best model existing right now?

Christopher Rufo:

I missed you a little bit, your connection went in and out. But if I understood correctly between the [inaudible 00:17:20], you're asking what is a good model for actually moving forward on legislation?

Anna Miller:

Yes, what's a good model? Is there a particular state model that you think is strongest right now?

Christopher Rufo:

Well, listen, and I'm not just saying this because I'm talking to the Idaho Freedom Foundation, I 100% believe this. But there are now 14 states that have introduced legislation to ban critical race theory indoctrination in K-12 schools and public agencies. And I think the Idaho bill is the best on the merits. And so glad to see that it passed, I think it's very important. But what the Idaho bill does that I think is really genius, and inconsistent with a limited government philosophy. Is that it basically says, you can teach critical race theory, that's fine. Among competing viewpoints with some historical context, as part of a robust academic discussion.

Christopher Rufo:

But what you can't do is you can't indoctrinate kids, you can't force them or compel them to believe these principles, which are, again, anti-American, anti-authoritarian, anti-constitutional, anti-civil rights. And I think that's a really good way to look at it, because it's saying public education is for the expansion of knowledge, it's for the discussion of important issues and topics, it's to prepare students to be able to think critically. But what's happened in so many institutions is that students are not being asked to think critically, they're being told what to think by activists within public education system, and that has to be stopped.

Christopher Rufo:

I mean, one thing I think is really important for people to understand is that taxpayers pay for public schools. So taxpayers should have a say in the values that the public schools communicate and teach to students. This is not a free speech argument, this is not restricting free speech, this is preventing compelled speech. And let's be honest, even in the state of Idaho, I imagine about 90% of school children are in public schools. So the public sector, the state has a monopoly on education and therefore they should be subject to the regulation through the democratic process. And it's quite a beautiful bill that made it through the Idaho legislature.

Anna Miller:

Well, we think so too. So you made a great point about free speech, and we've actually had some professors at other universities say that this bill is attacking free speech. And we know that a lot of professors in Idaho are talking about it, they're very leftist professors that like critical race theory and things like that. So to what extent do you think that these specific trainings that involve critical race theory do actually compel speech?

Anna Miller:

So we know, obviously we can't force someone to believe anything, but could you describe maybe how someone going through one of these trainings would feel actually compelled to affirm the tenets of critical race theory, and to affirm things that might not be true about them, like racism or sexism?

Christopher Rufo:

Yeah. I mean the heart of these training programs, and again, I've worked on now dozens and dozens of stories, and the common denominator is that they're not asking you to learn and think and debate, they're telling you what to think, they're telling you what to say. They're passing a value judgment on you as an individual, based on your race, your sex, your religion, your language capacity. I mean, these are training sessions that are not educational in any traditional sense of the word, their struggle sessions in a way is similar to the kind of malice struggle sessions in China.

Christopher Rufo:

Where they put people up there, they denounce them, they tell them they're bad for all of these reasons. And then they force you to apologize, or to accept their ideology. This is insane, and again, it has no place in the public education system. And even more kind of frighteningly has no place in the classroom of kindergartners and first graders. Where I've reported on a number of stories, they're saying, "These first graders, you're the oppressor because you're a white male Christian kindergartner." And this guy is like, "I'm five, I just want to eat my fruit roll up and maybe learn the ABCs, I'm not an oppressor, what are you talking about?"

Christopher Rufo:

So it's like, if you actually look at the stories, the concrete stories, the stuff that's happening is totally indefensible, and that's why you see in the state of Idaho, leftist professors bloviating about free speech and these grand abstract principles, because they can't defend the actual things that are happening in concrete real life. So if anyone is listening and anyone wants to figure out how to fight back against this, you can go to my website, I have all these stories up. I'm sure we can send a link after the, after the webinar.

Christopher Rufo:

You can say, "Okay, great, yeah, yeah." You are free to speak about critical race theory on your own time, your own dime, no one's going to stop you as a private citizen from preaching critical race theory. But do you think that it should be compelled in these ways? And then list specific examples. And you're going to get people who are very loud start to get very quiet, you're going to get people who are very aggressive, start to get very defensive, because these things are truly awful.

Christopher Rufo:

And our vision of this, our common sense restrictions on the state compelling speech from children, that are in some ways compelled to be in public schools, is a dominant majority position. Only the most fringe far left activists and ivory tower blowhards would think any differently.

Anna Miller:

So at the beginning of this conversation, we were talking about Trump and what Trump's executive order did. And Biden recently issued a new federal rule. Could you elaborate on what that means for the education system, even in a red state like Idaho, what could happen, and what does this role do?

Christopher Rufo:

Well, what the Biden administration is doing is that they're trying to dedicate grant funding from the department of education, they're trying to incentivize public to teach critical race theory by saying, this will be a factor in us considering brands. So you'll be more likely to get a federal grant if your school teaches critical race theory. On the one hand, I think we shouldn't exaggerate. I don't think this is a huge pot of money, it's not. I don't think it's going to be a massive program, or what really changed the landscape in very many schools.

Christopher Rufo:

I think it's more likely that schools that are already doing it will just receive more money. But I think at a symbolic level, which is important, the Biden administration is saying, "We're doubling down on critical race theory. Whereas the last administration opposed it, we're going to promote it." So this is turning out to be a very hot issue. And Americans are starting to wake up to this and saying, "Wait a minute, maybe I voted for Biden because he was a moderate Democrat." I hear a lot of people saying that.

Christopher Rufo:

But now he's pushing racialized neo-Marxist ideology in public schools, this is going to get a lot of people's attention. And I think it's certainly a good political point to make, both on the merits, and then as a way to communicate with the public.

Anna Miller:

So it seems like we are definitely on the winning side of this debate right now, we've seen a lot of good bills pass in other states, but we also saw critical race theory spread, and it's still spreading very, very quickly. Why do you think it is spreading so quickly? And do you think that the opposition that people are building is going to be able to crush it as quickly as it arose? Or what kind of timeline do you think there's going to be? How long do people have to keep this kind of pressure against this ideology up to see change?

Christopher Rufo:

Well, I think critical race theory, you're right, it has spread quickly, but we have to remember that this has been happening since the 1960s, and then in a conservative way since the 1990s. So we're talking about 70 years of development. And then I think you're right in the last five years of really explosive growth within institutions. But I think we're turning the tide on it. I'm very optimistic, I think these bills are going to go a long way. And I think what's really beautiful about what's happening in Idaho, and Tennessee, and Texas, and Florida, and other red states is that they're saying, "We have this amazing, incredible, beautiful system called federalism, where that education in Texas could look very different than the education in California."

Christopher Rufo:

And red states are now finally starting to wake up and draw a line and say, "These aren't the values that we promote in our public education system. We don't promote race essentialism, the idea that you can be judged and reduced to your racial category. We don't promote collective guilt, the idea that if you share a racial background with someone who committed a historical crime, that you should be held accountable for it. And we also don't endorse Neo segregation, which is happening in many public schools the country, where they're separating the classrooms, or training sessions between different racial groups."

Christopher Rufo:

And red states are saying, "We reject those principles, we're not going to allow them to happen in our public schools. And consequently, what I think we're seeing right now is something really incredible, that the public education system in red states that stand up for this, is going to be better than the public education system like New York and California, where they're teaching critical race theory. They're teaching the politics of racial grievance, they're eliminating advanced coursework. They're eliminating standardized tests, and achievement based academics.

Christopher Rufo:

The public education system in the big blue states, which has been historically fairly good is imploding in real time. And this gives a tremendous opportunity for a state like Idaho, where you can say, "This is what we do, this is what we don't do, we're very clearly laying out what we believe." And I think that's probably why you're seeing a lot of people moving to Idaho. Parents that have, are fleeing states like California and where I live, Washington state are saying, "Give me some sanity, give me some protection from these ideologies." And that's why Idaho, Texas, Tennessee, Florida are all booming, as people are fleeing these collapsing systems in the largest blue states.

Anna Miller:

Yeah. Idaho is one of the fastest growing states in the country right now, and we're very proud of that. And we know Idaho is a great state, and we want to keep it that way, and that's why we have worked so hard this session to make sure the legislature did something on this issue, just to protect our education system and our students and our teachers.

Anna Miller:

So a lot of people are watching, I know there probably have been in situations before, where they're debating with someone who was bought into critical race theory. Whether it's a real view of it or a false view of it, do you think it is worthwhile for people to engage in these discussions with other individuals? Is that the right way to fight against this ideology? Do you have any particular advice for people that are trying to debate on this particular issue?

Christopher Rufo:

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, go ahead, debate. My advice on debating though is always be armed with specific examples. So say, "Well, in X school district, they're teaching X, Y, and Z." Again, I have a list of my stories, I've done Twitter threads about it, I think that's a really effective way to make the case. I've also written a recent Hillsdale College Imprimis newsletter, with a very basic explanation of what critical race theory is, where it comes from, what it believes, why it's wrong.

Christopher Rufo:

So definitely get educated, I'm putting out resources like that, but I think more importantly, it's really pushing back with an institution. So if you are seeing this coming up in your local school, you're seeing this coming up in your church, which I'm hearing is happening more and more. If you're seeing this coming up in your local government, get organized and pushback. And the number one tip that I have, the number one, principle or strategy that I've seen that has been really successful is organized a group of people.

Christopher Rufo:

It's very easy for me to dismiss you as an individual, it becomes much more difficult. If you come with 10 families that are coming to a principal's office and say, "We don't want this, here are the facts about it, here's why it's wrong for our kids, here's why it's disruptive to the institution, and we demand you reverse course." When you can show up with strength and numbers, you can be very, very effective in pushing back.

Anna Miller:

Absolutely. So we're nearing the end of our time here. One final question I wanted to end on was, so you'd think in a state like Idaho, that is an 80% Republican legislature, that it would be easy to get Republicans and conservatives to come together and get something done. But the establishment actually runs very, very deep in Idaho's legislature, and it's a big problem.

Anna Miller:

And we had to pull teeth to get something done this year on this issue. And thankfully we got it done, and we're proud of that, and we're thankful to our legislators who acted. But Chris, what would your advice be to the establishment, not just in Idaho, but across the country, why is it so important for people on the right to come together to fight this ideology?

Christopher Rufo:

Well, I'll say it again, and not just because I'm speaking to you, but I'll say that the Idaho Freedom Foundation set the groundwork with this, with your series of reports on ideology in the higher ed system and the university system. So you've already made the case, and then when this legislative idea came up, you already had made that intellectual argument, and you were able to push it forward. And you were the trailblazers, the first state in the nation to get this legislation signed, sealed, and delivered.

Christopher Rufo:

And I'll be very honest with you about some other states. Some of the other smaller states that have heavily Republican legislatures, these bills got killed in committee, because Republican leadership said, "Ooh, we don't want to be the first ones to put this out there, we don't want to get boycotted, we don't want the backlash, we don't want to tangle with the teacher's unions." And they showed this cowardice, even though they were large majorities in the legislature, they were scared.

Christopher Rufo:

So the legislators in Idaho, I know you had to pull teeth and twist arms, but to their immense credit, they got it done. They pushed it out, they got it done. You know, they may be belly ached a little bit towards the end, but it's now law. And I think what you've done is you've shown that it can be done, that and that also there's not going to be a boycott, or a backlash or a corporate job killing... None of these fears were actually valid. And now we're seeing other states saying, "Well, if Idaho did it, we can do it too." So we've seen the bills pass. the legislature not signed into law. We passed both houses, one house a legislature.

Christopher Rufo:

Arizona, Oklahoma, Texas, Tennessee, a number of huge states. So I think in a matter of months, my goal personally and I think it's achievable, is to get critical race theory indoctrination banned in red states, to pass through legislatures that will protect 100 million Americans from this ideology. I think it's doable, and Idaho has led the way.

Anna Miller:

Yeah, let's get it done, I love that goal. And you have absolutely led the way on all of this. We are so thankful for you. I know that so many people in Idaho follow your work, but for those that don't and want to explore your work more, where should we send them?

Christopher Rufo:

Yeah, I'll type it in the chat too so you can directly link, it's just a christopherrufo.com That's my website, Christopher, R-U-F-O.com You can sign up for my newsletter, that's a really good way to get all my latest articles and materials. You can watch some films that I've produced for PBS and other broadcasters. And then you can also follow me on Twitter @realchrisrufo that's where all of my spiciest takes, that's where they all live, yeah.

Anna Miller:

Love that. Well, Chris, thank you so much for fighting the good fight. We at the Idaho Freedom Foundation are dedicated to this issue, and to solving this problem. We still have a long way to go, but we're going to get it done. So, Chris, thank you so much for joining us, thank you to our audience for joining us, I hope all of you have a great rest of your day.

Christopher Rufo:

Thank you, and the great work Idaho, I'm so proud of all that you've done.

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